Chaining (Speculation)

[CaMeRoN]

Let's assume that DragonBall CCG uses the same game mechanics as the Jutsu's in the Naruto CCG. I see huge problems with chaining in respects to keeping the game similar to the anime. In the anime, there is no negation of KI attacks. You can either deflect or meet it with another Kii attack. If we go with the same chaining rules are Naruto, then we will support the idea that you can stop a Ki attack by negating or hitting the person with your Ki attack. I'm not cool with that idea.

On the other hand, if Bandai mods the Jutsus in the Naruto CCG a bit to fit the anime style of DragonBall CCG then I will be pleased. Bandai could modify them to add Deflecting Cards for Kii attacks and Blocking Cards for Physical Attacks.

[soviet prince]

I am hoping that it does not use mech. like jutsu,

[Shinfitz]

Let's assume that DragonBall CCG uses the same game mechanics as the Jutsu's in the Naruto CCG. I see huge problems with chaining in respects to keeping the game similar to the anime. In the anime, there is no negation of KI attacks. You can either deflect or meet it with another Kii attack. If we go with the same chaining rules are Naruto, then we will support the idea that you can stop a Ki attack by negating or hitting the person with your Ki attack. I'm not cool with that idea.

On the other hand, if Bandai mods the Jutsus in the Naruto CCG a bit to fit the anime style of DragonBall CCG then I will be pleased. Bandai could modify them to add Deflecting Cards for Kii attacks and Blocking Cards for Physical Attacks.

What's the big deal if techniques or 'attacks' can be negated?

Think of it this way...

The cards that negate techniques can be signified by dodging of deflecting the attack.

It's just like in Naruto. The Sharingan can't negate a ninja's justu, but it can read the opponent's movements, which gives the user knowledge of their attack, and can set up a defense respectively.

[Goldenwill]

Yeah.. I really hope that this game has its own unique combat step, that is what will take this game to the next level.

[soviet prince]

Yeah.. I really hope that this game has its own unique combat step, that is what will take this game to the next level.

I double that there needs to be some diffrences.

[Shinfitz]

I double that there needs to be some diffrences.

All of that is easier said than done.

What would some of you guys do differently for example?

[soviet prince]

All of that is easier said than done.

What would some of you guys do differently for example?

making tech. not requir specific cards like jutsu does.

[CaMeRoN]

All of that is easier said than done.

What would some of you guys do differently for example?

I gave an example in my first post where they could have deflection and blocking cards to stop Ki and physical attacks.

In response to your earlier post;

I believe we need another system other than the Jutsu system used in Naruto due to the unique fighting done in DragonBall. It focus' on highly developed martial arts. This forces us into the idea that there will be a lot of hand-to-hand combat. In the Naruto, jutsu are the special type of fighting developed in that world, allowing jutsu's to be a fundamental part of the card game. Based on those two ideas, I believe I have established that both fighting styles are different and therefor need a different system to compensate for that.

[soviet prince]

I gave an example in my first post where they could have deflection and blocking cards to stop Ki and physical attacks.

In response to your earlier post;

I believe we need another system other than the Jutsu system used in Naruto due to the unique fighting done in DragonBall. It focus' on highly developed martial arts. This forces us into the idea that there will be a lot of hand-to-hand combat. In the Naruto, jutsu are the special type of fighting developed in that world, allowing jutsu's to be a fundamental part of the card game. Based on those two ideas, I believe I have established that both fighting styles are different and therefor need a different system to compensate for that.

completly agree with this.

[Shinfitz]

I gave an example in my first post where they could have deflection and blocking cards to stop Ki and physical attacks.

In response to your earlier post;

I believe we need another system other than the Jutsu system used in Naruto due to the unique fighting done in DragonBall. It focus' on highly developed martial arts. This forces us into the idea that there will be a lot of hand-to-hand combat. In the Naruto, jutsu are the special type of fighting developed in that world, allowing jutsu's to be a fundamental part of the card game. Based on those two ideas, I believe I have established that both fighting styles are different and therefor need a different system to compensate for that.

Well, honestly, I don't see how the fundamentals of the fighting in both series are really all that different.

In Naruto, they use hand to hand fighting (and have justu to represent that) as well as special energy-like techniques (also having justu to represent them).

How is that any different than Dragon Ball? I'm sure they'll have technique cards to represent hand to hand attacks as well as technique cards for ki attacks.

Both universes use martial arts to do combat. I don't see why you would say the fighting styles are different.

Dragon Ball is a more over the top series, power-wise. And Naruto focuses on more instant kill, assassination type techniques. But none of these facts would make Dragon Ball having the same battle system as Naruto unrealistic.

[Kintaro]

In the Shippuuden card game, the jutsus go off immediately.....unless they have a chain symbol, you can NOT chain jutsus.

Would you guys think a system like that would work (considering that this game has a similar mech, that is)?

[Goldenwill]

Originally posted by: Shinfitz
Well, honestly, I don't see how the fundamentals of the fighting in both series are really all that different.

In Naruto, they use hand to hand fighting (and have justu to represent that) as well as special energy-like techniques (also having justu to represent them).

How is that any different than Dragon Ball? I'm sure they'll have technique cards to represent hand to hand attacks as well as technique cards for ki attacks.

Both universes use martial arts to do combat. I don't see why you would say the fighting styles are different.

Dragon Ball is a more over the top series, power-wise. And Naruto focuses on more instant kill, assassination type techniques. But none of these facts would make Dragon Ball having the same battle system as Naruto unrealistic.

Yes, but this goes back to Cameron's original argument which is more about the actual chain. In naruto characters attepmt to prevent the opponent from performing the jutsu opposed to dealing with the atk. In DB is the exact opposite they do the atk and then try to deal with it. That is the main reason i feel the current jutsu chain doesnt fit DB aswell as it did Naruto.

[Shinfitz]

Originally posted by: Shinfitz


Yes, but this goes back to Cameron's original argument which is more about the actual chain. In naruto characters attepmt to prevent the opponent from performing the jutsu opposed to dealing with the atk. In DB is the exact opposite they do the atk and then try to deal with it. That is the main reason i feel the current jutsu chain doesnt fit DB aswell as it did Naruto.

Yeah, but in the same sense, in Dragon Ball, characters perform attacks and their opponent's dodge, block, and/or, deflects them.

This could be how 'negating' could be represented.

It'll be the same thing.

[Chronomaster]

I just don't want to see a Counterspell card in Dragon Ball.

Nothing would irritate me more than seeing my very costly Spirit Bomb deflated by a toothpick.

[CaMeRoN]

I just don't want to see a Counterspell card in Dragon Ball.

Nothing would irritate me more than seeing my very costly Spirit Bomb deflated by a toothpick.

Nicely put Chronomaster. That is definately an issue, if Bandai decided to take the chaining system from the Naruto CCG. I wouldn't want to see that either. There is no way that any special attack coming from a character should be get stopped by a small KI blast.

[Goldenwill]

Nicely put Chronomaster. That is definately an issue, if Bandai decided to take the chaining system from the Naruto CCG. I wouldn't want to see that either. There is no way that any special attack coming from a character should be get stopped by a small KI blast.

Exactly, if you put everything you have into one atk it should take everything they have to stop it.

[Shinfitz]

I just don't want to see a Counterspell card in Dragon Ball.

Nothing would irritate me more than seeing my very costly Spirit Bomb deflated by a toothpick.

I agree, having something costly being countered by something cheep is annoying.

I hate Wind Scythe too.

But having cards that can counter is a way to establish balance, since they create answer cards for something that might be too over powering.

Maybe the counter cards can cost X, where X is the cost of the card you're countering?

Maybe you can't 'counter' it as to say just negate it, but you can weaken the effectiveness of the card.

Whatever way you slice it, they shouldn't allow techniques to go unchecked. And I'm sure in the long run, if they handle countering fairly, everybody will be happier that there is at least one answer for everything, even the counter card itself.

[missingo]

Every card game needs negation, so yes deflections will be included.

I think some attacks will say " This attack can block an attack being performed by your opponent"

Or someting like that.

[Bunnyslayer]

Yeah I agree I think that having negation cards wouldn't make much sense but certain attacks can be dodged and deflected like you said...We havent really seen any attack cards yet so we can't really make any judgement on the way it will play out.

[talyhawk]

Like I said in another thread this game is already starting to remind me of Naruto, in more ways than one. The main thing that is currently irking me is the template for the character cards. It looks almost like bandai did a copy/paste from the Naruto templates granted there are a few color changes and such but yeah it's a naruto template. I'm not too keen on the whole team setup that it's looking like the game will have, and as someone once said before Goku looks like the new Naruto considering he gets stronger when he's in an injured status.

Moving on I'm thinking that the character cards for tranformations will either be like how it is in Naruto with Gaara and his different modes or it will use something similiar to "growth." I'm leaning more towards the SSJ modes being activated by event cards than by a growth method.

What do you guys think?

[soviet prince]

Like I said in another thread this game is already starting to remind me of Naruto, in more ways than one. The main thing that is currently irking me is the template for the character cards. It looks almost like bandai did a copy/paste from the Naruto templates granted there are a few color changes and such but yeah it's a naruto template. I'm not too keen on the whole team setup that it's looking like the game will have, and as someone once said before Goku looks like the new Naruto considering he gets stronger when he's in an injured status.

Moving on I'm thinking that the character cards for tranformations will either be like how it is in Naruto with Gaara and his different modes or it will use something similiar to "growth." I'm leaning more towards the SSJ modes being activated by event cards than by a growth method.

What do you guys think?

growth is how I think it will be done.

[Chronomaster]

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with negation. It's just when it's done badly or for very cheap, it quickly becomes a staple for any deck that runs the same color (or Isochron Scepter amirite?)

If two Kamehamehas clash, awesome. If you hand deflect a Ki Blast, cool. If you Matrix-esque dodge a Destructo Disk, more power to you. If you stop a Special Beam Cannon with your bare forehead, there's something wrong or you're just that awesome (read: cheap).

[soviet prince]

Don't get me wrong, there's nothing wrong with negation. It's just when it's done badly or for very cheap, it quickly becomes a staple for any deck that runs the same color (or Isochron Scepter amirite?)

If two Kamehamehas clash, awesome. If you hand deflect a Ki Blast, cool. If you Matrix-esque dodge a Destructo Disk, more power to you. If you stop a Special Beam Cannon with your bare forehead, there's something wrong or you're just that awesome (read: cheap).

if there is a type of negation all colors need to have one so it can balance out the elements.

[Chronomaster]

if there is a type of negation all colors need to have one so it can balance out the elements.
Not true. Balance exists in exclusivity as well.

Something could have a costly negation, and the others can have none at all. The color has the advantage of negation, but it will cost them more to generically keep their momentum, where other colors, under the right condition, can keep their momentum with a matching or lower cost.

In other words, having a negation isn't a be-all end all if there's some reasonable cost attached to it. It doesn't cause an imbalance if one color has it, so long as it isn't imbalanced itself.

[Ahdamis]

Just throwing in a thought. Any of you familiar with Re-Z? In Re-Z they added in a mech called Refocusing. It was a means of reducing damage from an attack by the damage on the card. Say you used spirit bomb which did 20 damage (for example) and I decided to refocus with an attack for 5 damage. I would still take 15 damage for the attack. This would reflect the idea of any one character trying to force back anothers attack, have a stand off, for a clash. I think something like that would be good to throw in. I've never played Naruto so I have no clue if something like that is in the game.

[missingo]

Like I said in another thread this game is already starting to remind me of Naruto, in more ways than one. The main thing that is currently irking me is the template for the character cards. It looks almost like bandai did a copy/paste from the Naruto templates granted there are a few color changes and such but yeah it's a naruto template. I'm not too keen on the whole team setup that it's looking like the game will have, and as someone once said before Goku looks like the new Naruto considering he gets stronger when he's in an injured status.

Moving on I'm thinking that the character cards for tranformations will either be like how it is in Naruto with Gaara and his different modes or it will use something similiar to "growth." I'm leaning more towards the SSJ modes being activated by event cards than by a growth method.

What do you guys think?
SSJ should be similar to State 2

Need a mission or whatever, or you get +1 HC and +1 EC.

[soviet prince]

Just throwing in a thought. Any of you familiar with Re-Z? In Re-Z they added in a mech called Refocusing. It was a means of reducing damage from an attack by the damage on the card. Say you used spirit bomb which did 20 damage (for example) and I decided to refocus with an attack for 5 damage. I would still take 15 damage for the attack. This would reflect the idea of any one character trying to force back anothers attack, have a stand off, for a clash. I think something like that would be good to throw in. I've never played Naruto so I have no clue if something like that is in the game.

yeah I liked the idea of refocusing.

[CaMeRoN]

Just throwing in a thought. Any of you familiar with Re-Z? In Re-Z they added in a mech called Refocusing. It was a means of reducing damage from an attack by the damage on the card. Say you used spirit bomb which did 20 damage (for example) and I decided to refocus with an attack for 5 damage. I would still take 15 damage for the attack. This would reflect the idea of any one character trying to force back anothers attack, have a stand off, for a clash. I think something like that would be good to throw in. I've never played Naruto so I have no clue if something like that is in the game.

Let's keep this on topic guys. This topic is meant to discuss to speculate the attacking and chaining mechanics of the DragonBall CCG. If you would like to discuss transformations or team setups then please do it elsewhere. There are definately other topics on the forum that have been created specifically to discuss those aspects of the game.

Refocussing was an amazing mechanic in the SCORE game. However, I don't believe it can be applied as readily to this game. If the game takes on attacks the same way that the old SCORE game did, then they can add this mechanic. If they go with the same attack mechanics as Naruto CCG, then this won't work.

[soviet prince]

Let's keep this on topic guys. This topic is meant to discuss to speculate the attacking and chaining mechanics of the DragonBall CCG. If you would like to discuss transformations or team setups then please do it elsewhere. There are definately other topics on the forum that have been created specifically to discuss those aspects of the game.

Refocussing was an amazing mechanic in the SCORE game. However, I don't believe it can be applied as readily to this game. If the game takes on attacks the same way that the old SCORE game did, then they can add this mechanic. If they go with the same attack mechanics as Naruto CCG, then this won't work.


yeah I was thinking the same thing

[Ahdamis]

Let's keep this on topic guys. This topic is meant to discuss to speculate the attacking and chaining mechanics of the DragonBall CCG. If you would like to discuss transformations or team setups then please do it elsewhere. There are definately other topics on the forum that have been created specifically to discuss those aspects of the game.

Refocussing was an amazing mechanic in the SCORE game. However, I don't believe it can be applied as readily to this game. If the game takes on attacks the same way that the old SCORE game did, then they can add this mechanic. If they go with the same attack mechanics as Naruto CCG, then this won't work.

Ah, okay. That was one reason I posted my thought. I saw people talking deflecting/negating attacks and thought that was part of this. >< I'm sorry.

I take it when you're talking about chaining you mean something like "Combos" or "Meteor" attacks in DBZ right?

[Shinfitz]

Well, as far as chaining and negating goes, there are plenty of examples in the series where things like this happens.

Take when Evil Buu reflected Fat Buu's Candy Beam right back at him.

When Trunks grabbed Freazas Death Ball and held it over his head.

When Freaza kicked Vegetas huge powered up blast back at him.

The list goes on and on. Aren't these examples of 'negating' attacks that were launched?

Hopefully, they will have some sort of level system to determine what can negate what.

For example. Three cards that read something like:
"Negate a technique that gives +3 or lower." For a cheap cost.
"Negate a technique that gives +6 or lower." For a high cost.
And "Negate a technique." For a very high cost.

Doing something like this will allow those who can predict the meta game correctly to choose which one of these would be best for an event.

Sure you could only use the high cost negation since it can affect everything, but you run the risk of over paying to stop a technique that doesn't give a high boost.

You could run the cheapest negation card, but now you have the problem of running into someone using huge attacks that it can't defend against.

I think this would be a great way to handle this.

[CaMeRoN]

Ah, okay. That was one reason I posted my thought. I saw people talking deflecting/negating attacks and thought that was part of this. >< I'm sorry.

I take it when you're talking about chaining you mean something like "Combos" or "Meteor" attacks in DBZ right?

It's okay. I'm glad you understand now though. We are trying to divulge whether or not a chaining system similar to the Naruto CCG will be applicable to the DragonBall CCG.

The list goes on and on. Aren't these examples of 'negating' attacks that were launched?
As per dictionary.com, the definition of Negation is; the act of denying ; a denial; the absence or opposite of something that is actual, positive, or affirmative. Based on that I have to conclude that you are correct. Those are definately examples of negation.

Hopefully, they will have some sort of level system to determine what can negate what.

For example. Three cards that read something like:
"Negate a technique that gives +3 or lower." For a cheap cost.
"Negate a technique that gives +6 or lower." For a high cost.
And "Negate a technique." For a very high cost.

Doing something like this will allow those who can predict the meta game correctly to choose which one of these would be best for an event.

Sure you could only use the high cost negation since it can affect everything, but you run the risk of over paying to stop a technique that doesn't give a high boost.

You could run the cheapest negation card, but now you have the problem of running into someone using huge attacks that it can't defend against.

I think this would be a great way to handle this.

That is an amazing idea, man. That type of system could definately work! In fact, I'd say that is undoubtedly the best idea I've heard thus far in respect to this discussion. Kudos on that one!

[Shinfitz]

It's okay. I'm glad you understand now though. We are trying to divulge whether or not a chaining system similar to the Naruto CCG will be applicable to the DragonBall CCG.


As per dictionary.com, the definition of Negation is; the act of denying ; a denial; the absence or opposite of something that is actual, positive, or affirmative. Based on that I have to conclude that you are correct. Those are definately examples of negation.



That is an amazing idea, man. That type of system could definately work! In fact, I'd say that is undoubtedly the best idea I've heard thus far in respect to this discussion. Kudos on that one!

Ah... thanks a lot. ^_^;

I've done a fan made TCG where a few friends of mine play at the card store I attend, and I deal with many things with this 'level' system. I feel it helps bring balance. So I guess this is why I sort of feel like it's common sense to handle things, especially negation, in this manner.

But thanks again for the kind words. It would be cool if they did something like this.

[talyhawk]

Personally I think the chaining effect won't be as applicable in this game as it is in Naruto but I do think it is very possible that will be the case. If they apply the same rules from Naruto to this game then the Warrior effects will have priority over the techniques and that they can't be chained with eachother (still think that part is a stupid rule). The attacker will definetly have priority in both warrior effects and technique effects that much is probably certain. Like I have said multiple time this is all speculation but I do think they will make the chaining ability applicable in this game along with some sort of negation.

[WANDERINGJD]

The naruto chaining system isn't bad but the rule execution is, like it says in the rule book there's only 2 chains per jutsu phase, everyone ignores that and plays multiple chains and resolves multiple jutsus.

[Wolf]

The naruto chaining system isn't bad but the rule execution is, like it says in the rule book there's only 2 chains per jutsu phase, everyone ignores that and plays multiple chains and resolves multiple jutsus.

It doesn't say that....

[talyhawk]

The naruto chaining system isn't bad but the rule execution is, like it says in the rule book there's only 2 chains per jutsu phase, everyone ignores that and plays multiple chains and resolves multiple jutsus.

Give me a page number in the rulebook and I'll believe you or even a post from Mr. Wheat or one of the other employees who tends to answer ruling questions.

As for the chain system in Naruto I don't mind it but I would like to chain ninja effects which you can't obviously due with how it's been ruled multiple times.

[soviet prince]

Well, as far as chaining and negating goes, there are plenty of examples in the series where things like this happens.

Take when Evil Buu reflected Fat Buu's Candy Beam right back at him.

When Trunks grabbed Freazas Death Ball and held it over his head.

When Freaza kicked Vegetas huge powered up blast back at him.

The list goes on and on. Aren't these examples of 'negating' attacks that were launched?

Hopefully, they will have some sort of level system to determine what can negate what.

For example. Three cards that read something like:
"Negate a technique that gives +3 or lower." For a cheap cost.
"Negate a technique that gives +6 or lower." For a high cost.
And "Negate a technique." For a very high cost.

Doing something like this will allow those who can predict the meta game correctly to choose which one of these would be best for an event.

Sure you could only use the high cost negation since it can affect everything, but you run the risk of over paying to stop a technique that doesn't give a high boost.

You could run the cheapest negation card, but now you have the problem of running into someone using huge attacks that it can't defend against.

I think this would be a great way to handle this.

really like that idea, it will also give this game uniqness(sp)

[Wolf]

really like that idea, it will also give this game uniqness(sp)



yeah me too............

[Mr_Chaff]

If the engine is compatible to Naruto... then combat would be similar too correct?

Not to spoil it but there is probably a chain... it just may not be exactly the same as how it is in Naruto.

[WANDERINGJD]

nvm it was in the q&a game mechanics not the rule book and they edited the wording to it so it doesn't say that anymore means i need to print the newer stuff again.

[soviet prince]

If the engine is compatible to Naruto... then combat would be similar too correct?

Not to spoil it but there is probably a chain... it just may not be exactly the same as how it is in Naruto.

feel free to spoil it all:D

[Mr_Chaff]

Neh... than you guys wouldn't have anything to speculate about.

[Chronomaster]

Three Speeds!
Normal Speed: Can't chain (no level). Can only be played when nothing is going on.
Fast Speed: Can chain (low level). Occurs First in, First out.
Instant/Hidden Speed: Can chain (high level). Occurs First in, Last out.

Responses can be made after each action is played and after each action resolves (VS/Magic-esque). Responses can only be made at or above the highest current level (no Fast actions while Instant actions are waiting). Highest level available resolves first.

There's my guess. :V

[CaMeRoN]

Three Speeds!
Normal Speed: Can't chain (no level). Can only be played when nothing is going on.
Fast Speed: Can chain (low level). Occurs First in, First out.
Instant/Hidden Speed: Can chain (high level). Occurs First in, Last out.

Responses can be made after each action is played and after each action resolves (VS/Magic-esque). Responses can only be made at or above the highest current level (no Fast actions while Instant actions are waiting). Highest level available resolves first.

There's my guess. :V

That's a good guess Chronomaster. I liked how the chaining worked in Yu-Gi-Oh!. This could definately work and I am all-for-it! Thanks for mentioning an idea as awesome as this one :)

[soviet prince]

Three Speeds!
Normal Speed: Can't chain (no level). Can only be played when nothing is going on.
Fast Speed: Can chain (low level). Occurs First in, First out.
Instant/Hidden Speed: Can chain (high level). Occurs First in, Last out.

Responses can be made after each action is played and after each action resolves (VS/Magic-esque). Responses can only be made at or above the highest current level (no Fast actions while Instant actions are waiting). Highest level available resolves first.

There's my guess. :V

another great idea.